Fuel Your Joy: Episode 1
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[00:00:00] This is Fuel Your Joy with Michelle Joy Kramer. Wellness for busy people get quick science back strategies to eat well, move smarter and support your body and mind in ways that actually fit your life.
So I'm super excited I have Dr. Kava with me and so great to be with you today, Dr. Kava. Uh, thanks for having me, Michelle. It's such an honor to be here. Yeah, so happy to have you. We, uh, recently met in Florida. You came here to Fort Myers and I drove over to come see you from Naples and. Just so happy to have you here.
We're gonna do this great series over time and talk about some topics people are very interested in. Uh, Dr. Kava is the director of clinical research at the Physicians Committee and directs research studies analyzing the effect food choices have [00:01:00] on insulin resistance and the regulation of a healthy body weight.
And today we're gonna talk about fueling weight loss, which is a hot topic today, don't you think? Yeah, absolutely. I feel like everyone, uh, wants to lose weight these days and so many options now of how to do it, and there's also a lot of confusion, you know, like, what should I do? What's, what's the best diet for me?
Yes. And. Pills and potions and shots and everything. So, um, where are you out of right now? Where are you, where are you located today? At the moment I'm in Washington, DC Uh, and, uh, you know, as you mentioned, I con we conduct research studies at the physicians committee and we look for the most effective ways for people how to change their diet when, when they're, when [00:02:00] they, when they wanna lose weight.
Uh, so a few studies that we've conducted was comparing, uh, let's say a Mediterranean with a vegan diet. These are, you know, two approaches. Uh, many people believe that a Mediterranean diet would be, you know, a better, better choice. So we compared the two together. And that was one of the studies that we conducted.
We also looked at, uh, different mechanisms that are included when people adopt a plant-based diet. So these are the topics that we will be covering today. Great. Can't wait. I bet everyone's excited. I get that often about the Mediterranean diet. And, um, so let's just dive right in. And so our first topic we're gonna talk about is calories in and calories out.
And you know, one of the things that people always ask me is a calorie. A calorie regardless, you know? And, um, [00:03:00] I think that's kind of a myth that people talk about calories at McDonald's compared to a whole food, plant-based meal. And anything you wanna say about that with calories, uh, is a calorie, a calorie regardless of what the food is.
Not all calories are created equal because sometimes you eat calories that are just empty calories and that don't have any nutrients. Sometimes you may have the same amount of calories, but packed with antioxidants and nutrients, and obviously these will have different effects on the body. Um, but it's not only about what we eat, but also when we eat.
So another aspect of nutrition apart from what we eat, is also when's the best time to eat and when should we not eat? So that's the second topic that, that we'd like to look into. Yes, exactly. That's great. Um, [00:04:00] so, you know, I guess the main thing is what does calories in and calories out actually mean? Can you explain that to us?
People, uh, just when they, when they're trying to lose weight, they, they think, well, let me just cut down on calories. Let me just eat less. And many people don't, don't even change like what they eat. They just eat less of it. You know, they, they, they reduce their portions. But what happens when you reduce your calories and when you just eat less?
Well, you know, in a few days you're becoming hungrier and hungrier and eventually you're not able to sustain this anymore, and you just like, you know, eat until you're full. Because fighting your hunger is not a successful strategy. Um, another way, um, you [00:05:00] know, people, p may, people may go about this. Is looking at their caloric expenditure, energy expenditure.
So they may think, well, you know, I like to eat. Let me not change what I'm eating. Let me just exercise more and let me exercise out all the extra calories that I'm eating. But you know, when you look at the numbers, uh, it's kind of clear that we don't have enough time in the day to exercise out all the extra calories we would be able to eat.
Uh, you know, it, it, it's kind of time consuming to burn the, the calories in in exercise. Exercise is wonderful. Don't get me wrong. You know, it gives you a lot of health benefits. I'm just saying. It's super hard to really exercise out all the extra calories, like on a, on a standard American diet that people eat like in a day.[00:06:00]
So, uh, you know, cutting down the calories, not such a great strategy. Exercising out the extra calories, not such a great, great strategy either. But when you change the diet composition, when you start consuming foods that are rich in fiber. That means all the plant foods, uh, fiber is only in plants. So when you eat a plant-based diet that's super rich in fiber and antioxidants, uh, you may without even realizing, you may end up eating a little bit less calories than you used to, but you're feeling full.
Uh, and so that's the long-term strategy for sustaining this type of diet. And it's not only that you're eating a little bit less calories, you're actually burning more calories when you eat. We did a [00:07:00] study and we, we measured the, the metabolism after a meal, um, on a standard American diet. And then when people go vegan.
Uh, we analyzed this in 244 overweight people, and we found out that after only 16 weeks on a, on a plant-based diet, their metabolism speeded up and it was 14% higher compared with baseline. Uh, so that means meaning, you know, that means burning 14% more calories after each meal you eat. Wouldn't that be wonderful if we could just burn off all the extra calories and, you know, uh, it would be, they would be released in the form of heat and done, you know, so that's exactly what we found in the study, that people burn 14% more calories when they eat a plant-based.[00:08:00]
Which is wonderful. Imagine the impact this is happening after each meal you eat. So imagine the impact over decades of your life. Mm-hmm. This can have a significant impact on body weight. That's great. And is that a study that we can include at the end for people to read? Absolutely. Yeah. Good. We, we'll put that link in so people can read that.
That's wonderful. You know, I know. How long have you been Whole Food Plant-based yourself? You know, I became vegan when I was 14. Uh, and the beginnings were tough. Um, my parents were against the decision and I remember bringing a package of milk at home and I was excited. I was like, this is like a traditional food, you know?
We will be so healthy. Like let's cook it. And my mom just didn't know what to do with it. And she, she looked puzzled. She was like, why would you wanna eat millet? This is bird food. You know, [00:09:00] I don't know what to do with it. You cook it. And so, you know, I just followed the instructions on the package and basically cooked it as rice.
And I thought that was the whole dish, you know, or the whole meal. I didn't realize that he, yeah, you cook millet, but you also eat, you know, something with it and combine. So for a while I was eating super healthy, but I thought, you know, the vegan diet is kind of bland. That's the way it is, but it's healthy.
And it took me a while to, you know, just discover that it doesn't have to be bland. In fact, you, it can be super delicious and still healthy. Yeah, I think that, I think, um, people when you hear millet or amrith or buckwheat, people get scared. They don't know what to do. Yeah. What is it, it's kinda like getting your first Instapot.
I know. I was terrified to use it. It was in the closet. I was afraid to get outta the box, uh, when I went [00:10:00] plant-based nine years ago. So, um, and so are you whole food plant-based today? Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Mm-hmm. So, um, let's just kind of experience all the benefits, you know, once you experience all the benefits, uh, uh, on, on yourself.
You never wanna go back. It's just Exactly, exactly. I agree. I feel the same. So what would you say, um, what types of food, I'm just gonna go into the food with what, what types of food are the most effective for supporting fat loss? And, um, preserving energy and muscle. A lot of people ask that. Uh, so we looked into this in, in our study that I just mentioned in the 244 people, and we found out that number one predictor of weight loss was removing all the animal products from the diet.
It was number one, [00:11:00] number two, uh, it was eating more of beans. Because most Americans don't eat quite enough beans and lentils and peas, all the legumes. Uh, so eating more of the, more of the beans and lentils and peas, that was another strong predictor of weight loss. And number three. Keeping the fat content low.
You know, sometimes people are like, oh, olive oil so good for you, blah, blah, blah. You know, or fish oil. A lot of it. A lot of it in their salads. Uh, you know, not so good for you. Be super mindful of the fat, uh, that, that you're, that you're consuming. In our studies, we ask people to limit their fat content in the diet to 30 grams a day, which is kind of strict, uh, but it's helpful if you wanna speed up the weight loss.
Keeping, keeping the fat content low on the, on the vegan [00:12:00] diet is super helpful. Mm-hmm. So I won't go into, uh, 'cause I always get this from people when I mention beans, they worry about gas, but we won't get into that. Today? Well, let's, let's cover it just briefly. You know, when, when somebody is not used to eating beans, what helps is going for the smaller varieties, like let's say red lentils, which is cooked like super fast and it's super small.
That one will give you less gas. Uh, it is helpful to soak the legumes overnight and then, you know, get rid of the fluid and, and exchange it several times before you cook it. That removes some of the components that that make people gassy. And another strategy is start with small amounts, but eat them every day.
So if you're not eating any at this point because they give you gas, [00:13:00] um, start with just a little bit, you know, of the red lentils, let's say, and eat a super small amount every single day that will help your gut microbiome adapt, and gradually you will be able to increase the amounts and also, you know, include other varieties of legumes.
Those are great tips. Um, wonderful. So, um, what about the quality versus quantity of food and how important is whole food versus processed? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, once you are mindful of the fat content in your diet, it kind of limits your options for processed foods. Uh, you know, uh, it's.
If you wanna only eat the low fat vegan options, then most of the processed foods are out [00:14:00] automatically. So from the ones that are still available, you know, you know, some crackers when you, when you travel some popcorn, uh, those would be just fine. Uh, generally speaking, uh, keeping, keeping the, the grains whole instead of refined grains.
Is, is really helpful for controlling the blood sugar. So let's say popcorn is a good example of whole, whole grain, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's a simple food and it's, it's done in an air popper in a, in just a few minutes. Uh, and if you sprinkle a little bit of nutritional yeast on top, if you put a little bit of brags, uh, you know, so that the, the nutritional yeast will stick.
It's delicious and it's super low in fat. Yeah, I know Rick Olson. I did an interview with him a few months ago and he has this great popcorn link that talks about all different varieties of popcorn [00:15:00] flavors that you can make, ranch and pizza and all kinds. And it's amazing. I was looking, um, yesterday for a client going to, um, vacation and I went through all these different.
Popcorns and things for her to take on her trip and everything. Uh, the oil and sugar. Yeah. And unbelievable. The good news is when you go in the grocery store and you become whole food plant-based, you can zip in and out of the grocery store. Yeah. You don't go through Yeah, absolutely. All the aisles.
Right. So that's great. Yeah. Go to the produce aisle first. Stock up. Yep. And you know, most of the other aisles can just stay there. Yeah. You can be in and out. So this is something you had mentioned in the beginning. Um, does timing of meals actually affect fat loss? Can you share a little bit about that?
Absolutely. You know, many people believe that snacking will help them in in [00:16:00] weight reduction, but it's actually the opposite. Studies show then that when we, when we snack throughout the day, we end up eating more calories. So it's much better to eat only the main meals per day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
And now when, when in a, in a study, they, they gave people the same meal in the morning and then in the evening and after the evening meal, people deposited more fat, 50% more fat compared with the morning meal. Uh, that's because of the, you know, c circulation and the, um, of the, of the hormones in our body.
Uh, the concentrations change throughout the day and, uh, when we eat in the morning, the body is much more able to process all the calories. Uh, so. Eat [00:17:00] breakfast like a king, lunch, like a prince, and dinner like a popper is a, is a truthful proverb. Uh, I looked into this topic and, uh, conducted a few studies on this.
Uh, one was analyzing the data from more than 50,000 participants in the Adventist health study. Two in Loma Linda, California. And we found out, uh, that when people, uh, ate breakfast, they were leaner than those who skipped breakfast. Uh, the timing of the largest meal was, was super important. E eating breakfast as the largest meal, you know, those people were the leanest compared with eating lunch as the largest meal and eating dinner as the largest meal.
Those people were the worst in terms of weight management. And, uh, also the number of meals. Eating, eating, eaten per day, uh, was super important. Uh, three meals a day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner was [00:18:00] our reference group. And people who ate more than three meals a day, 4, 5, 6, you know, so those people who are snacking, they tended to gain weight over time.
Uh mm-hmm. But there was a large group of people who ate only two meals a day, breakfast and lunch, and they were better off in terms of their weight management compared with eating three meals a day. And we decided, uh, to take this model from this observational study and put it to the test in people with type two diabetes who not only needed to lose weight, but also needed some help with their diabetes.
We found out we compared two meals a day, breakfast and lunch with six small meals a day. The same calories, the same diet on two meals a day. People lost 50% more weight. They lost [00:19:00] liver fat. Uh, their insulin sensitivity improved. Their diabetes improved more. Uh, and interestingly, they also reported feeling less depressed on two meals a day.
So their mood improved more. And here's the kicker. They felt less hungry, you know? Wow. The study, the number one concern was, I don't know if I can do the two meals a day. I'll be probably starving and I will not be able to follow it, but after only a few days. People started loving it, you know, and at the end of the study, most people decided to stick with it for life.
Mm-hmm. So eating breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a popper, can be also taken literally and you can only eat two meals a day, breakfast and lunch if you wanna like, really increase the, the fat loss and you know, in how you eat. [00:20:00] Well, you know, that's all great. And I will say that as a health coach, what I've noticed is most of my clients eat out at night.
Yeah. They're either entertaining or they're going out to dinner, and then they always love the, the snack when they go home, whether it's chocolate or have the dessert at night, you know, they're not eating like a popper at night. Mm-hmm. So when you have people like that, how, what do you say to them? And one of the areas I'll say that I look at is that I learned in nutrition school was that there's, you know, more than just the food, you know, there's obviously something else going on with stress or other things, other areas in their life.
Um, and I have found that most people do, you know, skip breakfast, they like to do a lot of intermittent fasting. And so what you're saying is very different than. I see. Of what people are really doing. Mm-hmm. Um, and especially now with all the different new weight loss shots people are [00:21:00] eating, even smaller amounts of food and, you know, drinking more alcohol.
And so it's, it's interesting what's really happening out in the, the world that I'm seeing every single day and how to kinda work. And, um, what would you say to somebody, you know, that. Eats out every night, travels, they're eating big, big dinners. They're social, they're trying to lose weight. Is there anything that you would say besides stop it?
Yeah. Can you consider socializing with people at other times of the day and changing the, the activities? Uh, you know, can you socialize with people? Um. Playing sports, you know, in the evenings, let's say. Yes. Uh, can you go out for lunch during the weekend together? Um, you know, can you, um, host a breakfast together, you know, in the morning sometimes, uh, especially on the [00:22:00] weekends.
I mean, be creative in, you know, how you can change your routine and how you relate to people around food in, in social and in social situations. That's great advice. Yes. Wonderful. So, um,
we already talked about eating smaller, you know, frequent meals. Is that better than three large ones? Um, let's see what else we can talk about. What are some of your We can, yeah, we go ahead. Do like what to eat, you know, because there's so much confusion about what Yes. Sure. And go ahead. Uh, so many people believe, you know, a plant-based diet.
That sounds too restrictive. That sounds too extreme. Let me do a Mediterranean diet. So we compared the two in a, in a study, [00:23:00] um, where for 16 weeks people were on the Mediterranean diet and then switched, uh, to a vegan diet for another 16 weeks. And the second group started with a vegan diet and then switched to the Mediterranean diet.
So this is called a crossover trial where each participant tries, tries both. And we found out, um, that on the Mediterranean diet, people did not lose any weight on average, which may be surprising to many people. Uh, but it's actually in line with what we see in the Predit study. The changes in body weight are super small, if any, um, you know, it's still a healthier diet than the standard American diet, but it doesn't, it just doesn't work for weight loss.
And also, uh, improvements in other cardiometabolic outcomes such as blood [00:24:00] lipids and insulin sensitivity and body composition. All of these improved on the vegan diet. No change on the Mediterranean diet. The only outcome that improved on the Mediterranean diet was a reduction in blood pressure, both systolic and diastolic.
So blood pressure was reduced on both the vegan and the Mediterranean diet, and it was actually larger on the Mediterranean diet. Um, but it was reduced on both. So, um, only blood pressure. Dropped on the Mediterranean diet, but all the other cardiometabolic outcomes improved on the vegan diet and people lost weight.
Their body composition improved, their insulin sensitivity improved their blood lipids plus the blood pressure. So why do you think the blood pressure worked on the Mediterranean diet? It's been described that the polyphenols in olive [00:25:00] oil may, mm-hmm. May contribute to, uh, you know, larger reductions in, in blood pressure.
So, you know, it's one of the benefits. It's great, but if your goal is to lose weight, then it's not a successful strategy. Mm-hmm. Um, okay. That's great. So I, I am, uh.
Let's see. There's so much I wanna go cover today, but we're gonna just do a very short video, um, or short interview today. So
what would you say is the most common mistake that people make when trying to eat for fat loss? Uh, you know, the most common mistake is that they start cutting down on calories. Um. Or they change their diet to something that doesn't, is not sustainable and is not healthy. [00:26:00] You know, you can, obviously you can lose weight even on cookies, you know, if you eat small amounts.
But is it healthy? Is it a healthy weight loss? You know, are you getting all the nutrients that you need? No, you don't. And, uh, you can say the same about a keto diet. You know, those are popular. Uh, but in a study, Kevin Hall compared a keto diet with a vegan diet, and these people were living for a month in a metabolic ward.
So everything was measured. And, uh, he found out that on a keto diet, people lose weight, but most of it comes from muscle. Mm-hmm. Who wants to lose muscle? I mean, not good, not good weight loss. So on a vegan diet, the, the weight loss was much healthier. People were losing mainly fat instead of muscle.
Mm-hmm. Okay. [00:27:00] Well good. This is some good, uh. Some. Anything else you wanted to say around this topic? I'd like to encourage everybody because weight loss may feel daunting on many people. Mm-hmm. It feels like, I don't know where to start, but with these two strategies that we covered today, what you eat.
And making a shift toward a plant-based diet and keeping the fat content low, and also paying attention to when you eat, making breakfast the biggest meal of the day, and skipping, skipping supper if you can. Uh, or at least making it the lightest meal of the day and pushing it, you know, a bit earlier in the day.
Um, those are two strategies that are super successful and, uh, many people find it super easy to lose weight with these two strategies. As you're saying that. I have one more question for you 'cause I get this [00:28:00] all the time, which I'm sure you do too. Being whole food plant-based. Um, you know, I get this question of if, do I need to eat more protein to lose weight?
No you don't.
Yeah. Protein and animal protein, obviously protein is being over-emphasized. You know, people are obsessed about protein. The protein needs for the body are fairly small. Um, on average, women need roughly 50 grams a day of protein man, around 60 grams a day. Not a problem on a plant-based diet. If you feel like you'd like to have more protein, add a little bit more soy milk or more beans and uh, more tofu and you will be just fine.
Red lentils, little, little lentils for beans. Yeah. Lentils are super high in protein. Yes. It's interesting. When I used to race and did Ironman's, I used to do a lot of, I wasn't [00:29:00] vegan then or whole food plant-based. So I used to do a lot of protein, a lot of animal products, and I thought more protein, the leaner I would get.
Mm. And that was the sickest time. I, I was in my life with a lot of digestion problems and everything else. Um, depression, adrenal fatigue. And then it wasn't until really nine years ago that I actually less protein as an athlete. And, um, feel lighter and better than I ever have, so. Mm-hmm. It's amazing, like you said, um, you gotta almost, you have to experience it yourself and feel it, and feel the difference.
Mm-hmm. And then there's nothing to, to sell and you never go back. Yeah, absolutely. So, well, thank you so much for our interview today and, uh, our next interview that we're gonna do, we're gonna talk about, which it's a hot topic here in Naples especially, but I think all over the country is really the best nutrition.
You know, what's the best nutrition for the [00:30:00] brain? Yeah. Everyone's, they wanna know, you know, about brain health and, um, how we can help them, uh, memorize everything and. And yeah, live a long life, long healthy life. So look forward to our next discussion. Yeah, I cannot wait. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
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